Animation Artifacts &Hubley 10 Feb 2007 08:44 am

Watership Down Down Down

– Yesterday, Mike Barrier expressed some angerl on his site regarding sloppy animation history. He takes to task Stephen Worth and a couple of others.

I couldn’t agree more with him regarding bad history on the internet. Errors appear everywhere, not just the internet but on these classic dvd’s we buy. (e.g: There’s conflicting information on #3 of the Looney Tunes set’s comment-ary tracks. It’s annoying. Since I particularly trust Barrier‘s accuracy, I went with his version.)

(Click any image to enlarge.)

I give you this information by way of introduction to some probably poor history I’ll present. Everything I offer is guess work. Unlike some others who are overconfident about their guess work, I’m emploring anyone who has conflicting information to let me know so that I can straighten the record and learn the truth, but I do feel somewhat confident.

The subject is John Hubley‘s involvment on the feature Watership Down.

I made some comments a couple of days back about Doonesbury and it prompted a question by David Nethery which started my rambling in response. I decided to add a couple of illustrations, and it’s evolved into this post.

There is no doubt in my mind that Hubley planned and shaped the opening sequence built around aboriginal art. Australian production designer, Luciana Arrighi often gets credit for this. However, I am sure Hubley put it into action and directed it. It’s his style. Perhaps it’s his style by way of Luciana Arrighi, but in the end it came out Hubley‘s.


Also obviously his is the guiding spirit of the Black Rabbit of Inle which appears throughout the film particularly after the death of Hazel.

Bill Littlejohn, Phil Duncan, Ruth Kissane, and Barrie Nelson – all Hubley regulars – acted as animator or animation directors on the film. I think they visited the studio in England, but most certainly worked freelance from their homes. A guess – strictly a guess – is that Phil Duncan animated that opening. It feels like his work to me.

I was not in touch with John during this feature or after he had been pushed out of it. At the end of Everybody Rides The Carousel I moved over to Raggedy Ann. Dick Williams had been a hero of mine since the late sixties when I learned of his work. I’d had a number of letters back and forth to his Soho studio, and I contemplated the trip to show him my art. (How much easier everything is with the internet!)

As Carousel wound down, I watched closely as Dick competed for the Raggedy feature. He worked with Tissa David to do a short pencil test of Ann & Andy dancing to a piano score by Joe Raposo. Shamus Culhane was doing the same for Joe Oriolo. The two presentations went solidly Dick’s way, and he got that film. Tissa presented my name to Dick, and I was offered the first staff position on the upcoming feature.

At the same time, John Hubley was offered Watership Down. He had made the comment that he’d like to do the job that Halas & Batchelor had blown with Animal Farm, and he thought this could be the film fo that. This was a very exciting prospect to my ears. However John didn’t want me to go to England. I sure would have followed if he’d asked.

He asked if I would stay in New York and manage his studio there. He thought it might be possible to do some work in New York while he did the film in London. We even negotiated a very meager salary (John was the tightest guy I knew. He’d faced bankruptcy several times and watched his money closely.) Ultimately, watching what was about to happen half a mile away was too enticing for me. I wanted the chance to work with Dick Williams who had already brought on board Art Babbitt, Emery Hawkins, John Kimball, Gerry Chiniquy, Corny Cole and others. My allegiance was more with Tissa by this point, and I made my decision.

So, my analysis of the scenes I see is based solely on my love of Hubley’s work. I’ve inbetweened and inked and colored thousands of Phil Duncan’s drawings and scenes, and I’ve designed for John Hubley knowing full well that every drawing I was to do under him came out looking like a Hubley film. (John was the best artist I’ve ever met, so no one, in my opinion, could match what he could do with the simplest of lines.) I think my speculation on these short scenes in Watership Down is correct. I hope anyone won’t prove me wrong, but there it is.

There’s a very nice piece on the web by Richard Bell about his work in BG’s under Hubley and Martin Rosen.

There’s also an extensive and very insightful piece by Chris Boyce with analyzes the film in depth. He tries hard to separate what might be Hubley’s from Rosen’s.

15 Responses to “Watership Down Down Down”

  1. on 10 Feb 2007 at 1:20 pm 1.David N said …

    Wow ! Now that’s a detailed answer(with pictures and everything. Thanks. That fills in some blanks.

  2. on 10 Feb 2007 at 8:10 pm 2.David N said …

    By the way, for anyone who is interested, the opening sequence from Watership Down is posted (where else ?) on YouTube:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dUAHDmPYwZI

  3. on 11 Feb 2007 at 2:48 pm 3.Thad Komorowski said …

    Mike,

    Which commentaries on Vol. 3 contain conflicting information? I am confused.

  4. on 21 Feb 2007 at 6:46 am 4.anonymous _ said …

    You do one very good job of laying out your thoughts clearly and concisely on this topic.

    As a dyed in the wool fan of the Watership Down movie for some years now, I continue to wish they would release the deluxe edition of that movie here in the US.

    Which, still continues to remain a region 2 (UK) DVD release, with no region 1 (US) counterpart.

    Reviews I’ve read of the movie are quite accurate as far as them not doing any digital restoration touch-up work on the DVD version. But, for all I know, maybe the Deluxe edition has been restored in such a manner.

    The US region 1 version however, lamentably remains a bit on the grainy looking side. But, perhaps, unless one is either watching the DVD on an HD TV, or via their DVD ROM drive on a PC (like me) you might not notice that issue quite as much on a standard resolution NTSC TV set.

    The deluxe edition of the DVD also contains out takes. Including Hazel and Fiver, NOT Hazel and Pipkin exploring around some during the Nuthanger Farm scene.

    There might be more as well. And, I’m not sure if there’s any pencil sketch tests on that version of the DVD, but I know I for one as an animation buff would LOVE to see such a thing like that, if It’s in there.

    Even Australia seen what could possibly have been a semi-bootleg version of the Watership Down DVD. (I’ve heard Australia has had It’s share of DVD bootlegging).

    It’s the 25th Anniversary Edition of the movie from a company called Big Sky entertainment, if I recall correctly.

    That version also contained a director’s audio commentary (from Martin Rosen, not Hubley) which can be enabled, and not only runs parallel to the movie throughout, but also fur a little while after the movie has ended, as I understand it.

    On a side note… I assume you meant the same Joe Oriolo that was the creator of Casper the Friendly Ghost, correct?

  5. on 21 Feb 2007 at 7:47 am 5.Michael said …

    Yes, I did mean that Joe Oriolo. He produced the syndicated series of Felix The Cat in the early 60′s followed by The Mighty Hercules in 1963.

  6. on 08 Nov 2008 at 4:43 am 6.Max Kelada said …

    The previous comments by “Anonymous” are ridiculous. The R4 DVD release in Australia was by Big Sky Video, not “Big Sky entertainment”, and was the legitimate, official R4 release. Does that idiot believe that Martin Rosen, the producer and director, would have participated in a “bootleg” edition? What an idiot! Big Sky Video also released the only uncut DVD version of The Plague Dogs. The watership Down audio commentary, by the way, directly contradicts Mike Barrier’s opinion on John Hubley’s contribution to Watership Down. Martin Rosen basically slams Hubley for being unprofessional and directly attributes the opening scenes to Luciana Arrighi.

  7. on 08 Nov 2008 at 9:31 am 7.Michael said …

    Martin Rosen would obviously put down Hubley. He fired the man for reasons I won’t add to this conversation. Hubley was as professional a guy as there was. His methods weren’t those that Rosen wanted to pursue, especially given that Rosen didn’t want to give power to anyone other than himself and knew virtually nothing about animation.

    I’ve seen Hubley drawings of several sequences, including the opening of this film. There’s no doubt that Luciana Arrighi deserves enormous credit, but don’t take away credit to the person who was DIRECTING her in the first year of this film. Hubley assembled the team (including Bill Littlejohn, Ruth Kissane, Barrie Nelson and Phil Duncan – all master animators) and the story.

  8. on 01 Jun 2009 at 5:41 pm 8.Heather said …

    I’m afraid of getting roasted here but here goes:
    I was curious who actually designed the look of the “natural” rabbits in Watership Down versus Hubley’s excellent “spiritual-themed” sequences. One can’t expect the average audience to watch 2 hours worth of Hubley style animation without their eyes bleeding. If it’s true that Hubley did design the overall natural look of the film (and not just the religious bits) then I take the above all back.

    I enjoyed the Hubley’s “The Cosmic Eye” but I’m afraid I’m in the minority there. Up until now I guessed Hubley’s firing was mainly due to to design issues on the film.

  9. on 22 Jan 2010 at 3:50 am 9.Nancy said …

    I recently came across your blog and have been reading along. I thought I would leave my first comment. I don’t know what to say except that I have enjoyed reading. Nice blog. I will keep visiting this blog very often.

    Nancy

  10. on 26 Jan 2010 at 7:24 pm 10.nancy miles said …

    Hello! Nice Blog! Its funny that I put in google my old friend Phil Duncan’s name and it came up with your blog. Yes, Phil did do that sequence. I am thrilled to meet someone who worked with him that is still around to talk about it! (I should have a letter somewhere that talks about Watership Down) He got me started on my love affair with animation. Wonderful man! I think it is time to write his bio! He was, as Preston Blair often said, “The Animator’s Animator”. Thank you for your kind words about him! He passed before John Canemaker could interview him for his books; so very few people know about him.

  11. on 11 Apr 2010 at 1:36 pm 11.Steven Hartley said …

    Watership Down has to be my favourite animated-feature film, mostly because I think its a wonderful story, and it isn’t a ‘cartoon about cute bunnies’, I think its well animated and well told, and I think the music is the film’s highlight, the song “Bright Eyes” written by Mike Batt, and sung by Art Garfunkel is a classic song!

    I have came across John Hubley’s involvement in Watership Down, as he was the original director, but he ended up being sacked by Martin Rosen, and I do think that Phil Duncan did the animation work of of the beginning, because I think its largely his work, since he had worked with John Hubley in the past, and he was credited as Senior Animator for the film, and I wonder if Duncan animated the death of Hazel at the ending, the ending has to be the most saddest part of the film, because even if I’ve watched it about 10 or 12 times, it’ll still bring me to tears!

  12. on 11 Apr 2010 at 2:19 pm 12.Michael said …

    The opening of the film looks to me like the work of Bill Littlejohn, even more of a Hubley protoge.

  13. on 11 Apr 2010 at 3:50 pm 13.Steven Hartley said …

    Thanks

  14. on 17 Nov 2011 at 10:08 am 14.Becky Bristow said …

    Michael,

    Ruth Kissane was my mentor when I was learning animation. I remember her telling me that she had done some animation on the Title sequence of Watership Down. She had also done quite a bit of animation in the film too. Ruth was a fabulous person and a very professional and passionate artist, musician and animator. An all around wonderful person. She had great stories about getting fired from Disney as and inbetweener because she got together a petition to have the cafeteria open later so they could have something to eat when they were doing alot of overtime.

    Love your blog….thanks for doing it.

    Becky Bristow

  15. on 17 Nov 2011 at 1:57 pm 15.Michael said …

    Hi Becky,

    I know John Hubley loved Ruth’s work and enjoyed using her talents in his films. It was my good fortune to have been the one to assist her animation. From EVERYBODY RIDES THE CAROUSEL to DOONESBURY it was a treat. The last piece I did was in DOONESBURY, a piano turning slowly. I think I may still have her drawings for that scene.

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